[Enhancement] Dump MAUI and Adopt Flutter with C#/Blazor #160
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Thanks, For all The time taken by you to write Awesome details. Also in order to reach more people i would like you to add this post to REDDIT and message, WINDOWS CENTRAL AND THE VERGE TOO... it would be so great! |
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Ok Man, Will try to send it to WINDOWS CENTRAL :)
Bro here is my number ( just incase u want to stay in contact)...and see
the future together.
+923431530052 *whatsapp,duo etc.
…On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 8:10 PM jhancock4d ***@***.***> wrote:
@fisforfaheem <https://github.com/fisforfaheem> I'll see about Reddit. If
you can spread the word on those other places that would be great!
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I am trying to reach everyone...from @panospany to @windows central |
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I think that healthy competition is good for the (IT) market. Microsoft please keep going on with MAUI... and If possible collaborate with the Uno platform. Thanks |
I would prefer developing for a super-fleshed out platform than developing for 2 platforms that aren't as good as they could be. |
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@tomasfabian The competition is with Google and Apple. Uno (good people but still), Xamarin Forms/Maui don't compete. Their niche at best. And it doesn't matter what incrementalism MS brings to Maui that isn't going to change. That ship has sailed. Yes, provide support for that ever shrinking market. But the reality is that Microsoft is done in consumer and that means consumer development too in 18 months if they don't get a plan that is cohesive and provides best of breed developer tools that work cross platform. They've proven they can't do it with Xamarin for many reasons and Flutter has already done it and is asking for help to do it for Windows. You save Windows as a consumer platform, if you adopt Flutter. You create another stop gap to the demise of Windows if you continue to focus on Xamarin/Xaml/Uno/Reunion/WinUI. It may slow it slightly but it doesn't reverse it. And if .NET and C# development goes away for Consumer and Windows does too, then .NET itself will collapse in time too instead of being the powerhouse language it can and should be. |
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Flutter, in less than 6 months could give you superior greenfield apps, better than UWP, WPF/Winforms and enormously better than Xamarin Forms/Maui. The point is that Microsoft should be investing its time in Flutter compatibility for Windows and porting C# to the flutter rendering engine and not doubling down on dead technology that is virtually not used. (i.e. in 2 years since the beta of flutter, there are more Flutter apps in ios/android stores than the Windows Store, and more flutter developers than 10 years of Xamarin existence and that keeps growing. |
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It's a quite funny topic because Edge was dropped in favor of Chromium to reduce development resources for sure, that is quite clear. Anyway, the best browser in the market is definitely Firefox, which proves that a "follow Google" is a bad idea. |
You cannot use an opinion to prove a fact. |
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More options is probably better overall for the ecosystem, as competition is usually better in the long run. The new slim renderer architecture for MAUI would make it at least possible for the community to create a flutter based renderer if one wanted or even a Skia based one (which has been raised is this repo quite a bit) and render their own controls pixel by pixel like Flutter and directly compete that space. While my it's just my opinion, I still prefer a cohesive platform where everything looks and integrates well for that platform, that means on Windows it'll likely be using UWP controls with it's distinct style with Fluent design, and on iOS with it's design language. Not all apps nor devs have the resources to create branding to make a unified UI for all platforms for their apps. Some actually leverage the platform's design language and focus more on the value they want to introduce for their app, apps like. myTube from the UWP community discord looks really clean and it uses the platform's design language to do so. Most IOS apps are also like these and they fit pretty nicely into their ecosystem while the bigger ones go one step further and create a unified brand for their UI. |
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Xamarin, MAUI, Flutter, or Skia .. It doesn't matter. I hope your messages reached. Requests for Flutter and Skia simply mean that, .Net developers are not feeling safe if MAUI came similar to XF in being: too buggys (ships bugs than features), too slow evolution (maybe we can take photo by XF without plugins in 2045?) weird prioritising (work on trivial features while leaving crash reports and important features pickled for years), and of course consistency across different platforms (have you tried to make TabbedPage tabs stretch over the width of the window on UWP like it does on Android?) |
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@Happypig375 Just test by yourself. I've used along the years more or less in this order: IE, Opera, Chrome, Edge and finally Firefox. If you try Firefox for one week you never go back to another browser. (Didn't test any other ones besides the ones listed). Maybe it has subliminal messages. 😵 😆 |
There was an official response to these two on #109. |
Are you seriously trying to back up opinion with more opinion? |
I used Firefox for almost a month and then back to Edge... your opinion is not a fact 🤷 EDIT: sorry, I know this is not the point of the issue, looking forward to reading more opinions on the main topic |
That's not what this issue is about? Opinion with more opinion? 😆
Interesting! I just tested Chrome recently so I will definitely try Edge again then. Thanks for the feedback, 😃 |
JohnGalt1717
changed the title
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Back to the topic in a subjective world viewed as an objective one. |
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@tomasfabian Here's the death spiral:
Microsoft recognized this death spiral on server side and created .NET Core and WSL to address it. (WSL was really Windows Phone Android emulation that they made into something on Windows but the reasoning stands) This prevented the server side devs from jumping to Linux because they target Linux and stopped the .net bleed because linux was cheaper on server side thus no one wanted to pay the massive Windows Server tax just for .net when they could do just as well with node.js (at the time) without paying the bill. They recognized this with IE/Edge too. So they adopted Chromium to stop the bleed and create a viable browser that they could focus on other things than keeping up with Chromium's rendering engine and get Google's features for free and make a better UI than Google with better privacy protections than Google making a win/win which is now chopping into Google Chrome's market share enormously. What they haven't recognized is that they MUST do the same thing if they don't want to exit the consumer space. (aside from Xbox which they'll exit if the new xbox this fall isn't successful) For Windows to maintain relevence they have to reverse the spiral:
To do that they must:
While it is in theory possible for Microsoft to make Xamarin Forms/MAUI into this platform, the time required and massive overhead in developing and maintaining that level of functionality across at least 5 platforms is enormous and clearly not viable given how long MS has been trying with varying levels of dedication to make this happen. (You can write a hello world app in Xamarin Forms in iOS, Android, Windows UWP, Windows WPF, macOS, Linux and Tinzen right now, but that's about all you can do on all of those platforms and you can't do web.) As Steve Baulmer said "Developers! Developers! Developers!". He was right. Microsoft has lost the developers and has to get them back. Short of a miracle with Xamarin Forms that Maui doesn't provide, they have no plan to get the developers back. They need one yesterday, because they have it on server side and web but not consumer/business consumer. So if Microsoft wants to ignore me, then fine, but tell us .NET devs how you're going to accomplish what I've set out. How you're going to get all of those developers that are on macs back to windows, building windows apps. Because the answer right now is not an answer. It's a punt of "use whatever you want". It is neither compelling or viable and developers know it, which is why they're largely ignoring it. (even PWAs in the windows store are almost non-existent other than the ones that Microsoft wrapped themselves and Twitter) I'm all ears for a better, viable plan. I just have yet to see it and have yet to even see anyone at Microsoft even talk about the need for a plan. |
Why do you keep editing this issue? |
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@saint4eva Spelling mistakes and clarifications to address concerns to makes it a better proposal. Which is kinda the point and done ALL THE TIME in dotnet proposals. |
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@JohnGalt1717 sorry, but I feel like my original questions haven't been answered in your long post. |
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@tomasfabian I think that my comment conclusively answered your primary question. In short: Either Microsoft gets developers back to Windows or they're IBM but this time with Azure which worked out nicely in the short term and disastrously in the long term. See also IBM's stock price. Google doesn't have to care. And it's obvious that they care significantly less than other platforms. But Google caring about Windows success one way or another or caring about Flutter on Windows is irrelevant to the success of my plan because open source means that as long as google accepts contributions to the rendering engine for Flutter on Windows (and hopefully web assembly) the rest has nothing to do with Google and we know that they, because they're exposed will do so based on their acceptance of Microsoft contributions to Chromium. (which is why I didn't understand why the question was relevant.) |
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Thank you @JohnGalt1717, this is perfect! If Microsoft really cares about developer productivity, they'd quit trying to create vertical solutions that don't work well with other platforms. I mean, I don't know how long @SteveSandersonMS worked on the integration itself, but it looks like he was quickly able to leverage all the benefits of Flutter in relatively little time. His demo was damn-near complete in what developers would need (aside from maybe deployment). It would be stupid for Microsoft to not at least consider it. I'm seeing no down-sides and a lot of up-sides. I'd really like to hear an honest reason why this isn't a good approach. |
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Love the idea, but I think Microsoft should bet on both horses, and not Dump MAUI. Flutter C# and NET UI -> Xamarin Forms (MAUI) + WPF/WIN-UI + UNO (Xaml and UI Unification). SO |
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This issue is off-topic. This repo is not intended as a general message board. I am closing this issue. We welcome feature requests or bug reports that are focused on making .NET MAUI better. Feel free to open issues like that. |
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Where would you recommend an issue similar to this being opened? |
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If you want to use Flutter and C#, then maybe start talking to the Flutter people about that. That's a laudable goal. |
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@pauldotknopf all of you have invaded this repository in a nonconstructive way. Please leave peacefully |
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@richlander respectfully, this isn't off topic. This is explicitly on topic. The suggestion is to use the Xamarin tooling, Xamarin ios/android interfacing and use the Flutter rendering engine instead of what has been presented as the plan for MAUI's rendering. And since MAUI is simply Xamarin Forms warmed over, and the suggestion is to make it better in a very specific way that helps Microsoft why would you silence the conversation that would result in a better product than what the plan (if you can call it that) for Maui? If you want to call Microsoft's version that uses the flutter rendering engine for cross platform MAUI, great, that works just fine because it's 90% Xamarin tooling that is being proposed. Given that Maui is the future of Xamarin Forms and this is a specific plan for the future of Xamarin Forms, where else would be more on topic? I can't think of anywhere. The general dotnet group? That's less specific and less relevant. There is no (public) windows group where it would be absolutely relevant, so we can't post it there. As for the ridiculous comment about talking to the flutter people (that have 0 interest in facilitating anything like that any more than Google had any interest in facilitating Edge using Chromium), that completely fails to understand the massive problem Microsoft faces. You're basically telling us to leave Microsoft products because staying with Microsoft is not a viable solution as it is currently outlined by Microsoft leadership. If you silence the very people that are trying to help you come up with a real solution then you're doomed. And that you've done exactly what I'm proposing directly with .net core on linux, and Edge on Chromium should demonstrate that I'm right and on to something. So if you have a better more cohesive plan, then Microsoft needs to tell us because as it stands it isn't Maui which you've said won't work on web any time soon thus making it a non-starter compared to flutter from day one. But I'd guess that like @SteveSandersonMS got his Flutter initiative killed in a heart beat and we got the lame bindings for Xamarin Forms instead, I'd guess this is more about politics than the idea. And no one that matters in the company has pushed a solution yet, which tells us all, that Microsoft is doomed in the consumer space without a cohesive plan or vision. This is the Microsoft CEO's massive blind spot. Fortunately in browser he had Joe Belfiore to champion, and .net core running on Linux was in his wheel house. The question is if anyone in the .net/windows teams will step up and be the champion here, see the dire risk to Microsoft if they don't take this seriously and push it forward and overcome the "not invented here" road blocking. Over and out. Here's hoping that more forward thinking people in MS see this and take it to heart and in the spirit intended. |
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Flutter and MAUI are not equivalent. One is a rendering engine (writes pixels) and the other is an abstraction. You know this. We sincerely wish the Flutter project lots of success building a cross-platform rendering stack. It's a hard task. This project isn't planning on taking that on, or relying on such a stack. It's not a small shift, as you surely realize. We're staying the course of providing a cross-platform abstraction. That's not going to change. It's a choice, and one we're happy with. As a result, this conversation is off-topic. If someone wants to build a MAUI renderer on top of Flutter as an AN OPTION, that would be interesting, and we'd entertain that design proposal. Please, keep it respectful. I'm locking this issue. Continue using the same kind of language, and I'll ban you from the org for 7 days. |
Summary
Flutter has the momentum, Google has asked for help, and the adoption of Chromium for Edge has proven that this works for Microsoft. It's now or never for Microsoft in both end user developer space and end user in general. Xamarin in any form (Maui or otherwise) isn't going to move the needle. Flutter already has 50,000 apps in the stores that all become quality Windows apps if Microsoft properly supports it.
Benefits to Microsoft:
What Microsoft Needs to Do:
By doing the above, Microsoft gets all of the work from Google going forward for free (i.e. iOS, android, web and Linux will likely be done by Google making dev so much easier for Microsoft and everything they do just makes Windows apps better and more devs use Flutter thus making more Windows Apps exactly like what's happening with Edge Chromium). Microsoft gets 50,000 (mostly) quality apps quickly that work with what Panos' vision. Microsoft has a clear communicable go forward for developers and everyone else in the consumer space. Microsoft internally gets a development platform that allows them to be vastly more productive if their .net and windows dev teams are focused on this, because now they can write Outlook as an example, once and it works everywhere they need to be and the feature set reaches parity on all platforms at all times. And by making development trivial on Windows, Microsoft gets apps that are developed for Windows first again which makes Microsoft the dominate platform again quickly.
There is no downside to this approach other than fiefdoms within Microsoft will have to be broken and the honest conversations that the Edge team had switching to Chromium. And leadership needs to lead to make that happen and ensure anyone that isn't 100% on board with this vision leaves the company because Microsoft's future outside of Azure depends on this approach. Nothing else saves the end user half of the business. Only this approach has a good shot of doing so in the timeframe that ensures that Microsoft doesn't have to walk away from consumer/frontend business on Windows.
Please Microsoft, take this seriously. We want you to succeed but you're not thinking strategically and no one has a plan on how to get you where you need to go. This is that plan, or at least the start of one.
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